I find your allegations disturbing at best.

Yes, there is an IC heararchy on the MUCK, and to an extent, there is an OOC heirarchy, too. This cannot be helped. These people come up with ideas OOC for the running of the world IC, because it is their responsibility. Believe me, they try to include everyone. If I were to learn that they excluded anyone for no good IC reason, I would be very, very surprised. If you think Victor will be excluded from plot for personal reason, then you are being very short-sighted and presumptuous.

On the subject of 'elitist' plots, I know you're referring to the deltas, and that this has been covered before. If you even bothered to look beyond the fact that it's a limited amount of players playing deltas, you could see that that by its very nature, the plot is exclusive. I don't see this as a bad thing. Not every plot can include everyone. In a way, the deltas includes everyone any of the deltas have contact with. Anyone that has met any of the deltas IC has, wether they realised it or not, contributed to the delta plot, as far as I can see. Some plots do not allow for everyone in the world to participate in them. To make plots be inclusive of everyone would be limiting to the player's actions and enjoyment. So, by your definition, criticising plots that do not include everyone is a form of powergaming. You don't think it is? Well, neither do I, so let's just say you're wrong, shall we?

Yes, I do not sign Rico on as often as I would like. I will try to rectify this, and did not know that Victor didn't know I played him. Victor, if you wish to RP with Rico at some stage, let me know.

I am trying very hard to be nice, but Jesus. You call me shallow? You do not have the right to call anyone shallow. Your antisocial and downright _wrong_ opinions are what is damaging this game, making the people who put the most work into the game feel like shit with your petty remarks. They hurt. They hurt more then you know, when you stomp all over people's hard work with your stupid little problems at not being included in every little thing. There _is_ no elite group, plotting in an ivory tower to make life difficult for everyone but themselves. I don't consider myself part of anything that would limit other people's enjoyment. If I thought that for a second, I would be off this game in a second. There are no black helicopters. You are not being repressed. There is no need to attempt to undermine the structure of the game, and turn what you percieve as the 'repressed' players against some sort of non-existent bogey man. That you have just tried makes me so fucking angry I want to break something.

There is a slippery slope from brief overpoweredness, until it becomes the norm. Then, the norm becomes something else entirely. This is when the game gets silly, and the bottom falls out. If you feel like creating something interesting and unique (something along the lines of a new weapon, like Victor), please, please, run it by a Wizard. It is the rules of the game. If you do not wish to abide by the rules, I suggest you not play.

This discussion is moving to the OOC board, if you wish to continue. Any more posts to his thread will be deleted. Aren't I the little fascist?

By ??? on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 11:57 pm:

I have to say I do not disagree with Victor or consider his actions powergaming. In an -imaginary- world, how can you assume the limits of weapon technology? To do so is conceited and arrogant and a form of powergaming in itself. Let us take our world for an example. If you matched the "Zero" planes from World War II against a modern war plane today the technological differences is amazing. To have such weapons is not a form of powergaming. To use them in a way that restrains other player’s rights is powergaming. Powergaming is to rob someone of their rights for personal gain. Victor hasn't done that. In this post it was a "weapons test" as the post was titled. Actual battle would result the same way. Additionally, as Victor said, his suit could not withstand a long term battle with any gear. The power output would kill him. You say that a character could "run away" but if someone was to actually escape from a gear on foot you would accuse them of powergaming for that. Victor has not powergamed because of this post.

As for Kislev, if you want a say in what happens, sign on. If you do not sign on you don't get to complain. Do you honestly expect Victor to sit around and do nothing because you are too busy or because what he does doesn't please you? That is unfair to Victor and I would even go as far as to name you powergamers for doing this to him. Victor's idea is valid but you dislike it because it disturbs your happy little world. It is ironic because you call him a powergamer but by restricting his actions you are powergamers. There is plenty of powergaming on this MUCK that goes beyond dodging bullets. The elitists plots, and you know who you are, and the greatest form of powergaming around. You exclude people and run plots for yourselves. Then if anything disturbs your fun you complain. You are a whole bunch of hypocrites.

To Victor, I applaud you and your bravery. To stand up to these people is a great risk. It is quite likely you will be excluded from all plots now because of the shallow people. That is why I use an anonymous name to hide my identity. If not, I would be persecuted for my beliefs. True, these people will find some fault in what I say but this message isn't to them. This is to everyone who is oppressed by the hierarchy of the MUCK. Just think about it and face the fact that, yes there is an elite group that controls and limits what you can do. Victor, you have my respect. You have made a well thought out argument where the people opposing you have simply said, “No you can’t do that because I say so.” You have used facts and evidence to support your claims while Brin and Dominia have not. I hope these people do not destroy your attempts to make the game interesting. In all honesty I wouldn’t be surprised if no plots ever came your way again. That is the way things work around here. The rest of you who are not elite players need to consider what is going on and unite in a path you decide on. Bravo Victor, you aren’t wrong. I hope that is at least worth something to you. It won’t change the fact that people are holding you down but maybe it will make you feel better. Good Job.

By Brin {OOC} on Sunday, November 25, 2001 - 10:15 pm:

There's something related to this on the OOC board. I think it's a good idea. Let me know what you think, Vic.

By Victor on Sunday, November 25, 2001 - 04:04 am:

One last thing, then I'm done.
I never said that using examples of powergaming to powergame is fine. I was pointing out other subject that I felt needed to be addressed, rather then be a stool pigeon and point my finger at people. Believe me, I could point my finger at a few people if I so wished.
I also didn't beat those gears, I knocked them down. They were still functioning when the message was over; they were just knocked down. Plus, I've never seen grenades as a long ranged weapons, unless you have one hell of an arm.
As for the no recoil part, I would say that there is heavy recoil from the use of such self-powered weapons. His suit supports Victor’s very life, It processes his oxygen, it beats his heart, and it even breaks down the food and water into his blood. If it should run out of power, Victor would die on the spot, so he runs a high risk by using these massively power-consuming weapons. If anything Victor is one of the most vunible characters on the MUCK. Tell me whose else has a character that can't even breath fresh air or must fear that even a tiny hole in his suit will lead to his death? But I chose a character like that so that I can play a unique person, a person while strong and seemly unhurt, can be killed by the slight exposure to the world around him.
As for other Kislev's, I know there are others out there, but the only normal Kislev's are Harmony and my-self. I see Rico once in a blue moon, and on my entire time here, I've seen both Yasha and Liete on once. Not to blame them of anything, they most likely have better things to do. But never the less it got to me when I was told that I should of got the approval of a character I never see, to do something they weren't a part of.
That's all I wished to say, and with that I'll close my trap, and just stay in Nortune.

If there's anything else you all wish to say to me, please send it to Victor_Darkskies@hotmail.com, so as not to clutter this board. And erase this IC message if you wish, or at least move it to the OOC board.

By Domi OOC on Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 08:55 pm:

I'd have to say that Brin put it better than I ever could have.

Yes, powergaming exists on this game. I can't deny that. But the point remains that I can't know when every incident of it occurs. The proper responce to powergaming is to log it, send the log to me (preferably just the part where the powergaming is being done) and explain why you feel this is unreasonable.

Yes, its impossible to dodge bullets. I have sent warnings to three players in the last year because of that very fact. This is the correct way to deal with it--You tell me, I warn them, things get happy.

Powergaming to resist powergaming is not an option.

Just remember that if something goes wrong on the game, you're not alone in it. You are not alone to fend for yourself against people who powergame, nor do you need to personally come up with ways to 'fix' it. If there is something logically wrong, you consult the Wizards.

On the same note, you do not speak or make decisions for the entirety of Kislev. Yes, I'll admit we're seriously lacking in people for Kislev. But there are OOC and less debateable ways to attempt to fix it.

Because.. Yep. Brin has a Kislevi. I've got 2 major Kislevi. There are a few of us about, really. And we can find a reasonable way to address the Kislev problem without having to do this, however.

Otherwise, I'm just going to let Brin's explanation stand, as its much better than mine. ^^

By Brin {OOC} on Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 08:24 pm:

Victor, your point is moot. You are talking about long-range weapons, greandes, beam weapons, etc. The below is an example of hand-to-hand, where Victor makes contact with a gear, and beats four gears, using a weapon which appears to be self-contained, self-powered, have no recoil or other ill effect, and basically allows a person to best a gear IC. That is ridiculous. If a person is up against a gear, they are not being 'limited' by being compelled to run away. It's just one of those things. Gear beats human. Grahf and Id are by all accounts superhuman, perhaps powered directly from Zohar, perhaps supernatural, who knows?

You say that that one could not -win- against a gear is correct. Well, the initial IC post showed Victor beating four. I don't see how you can just turn around like that without your argument falling apart.

As for holding the opinion that it is okay to powergame, since others are, I reject that completely. If someone is powergaming, tell them.

The fact that kislev is in general weaker than Aveh is unfortunate, and due in a large way to the lack of RPers. I wish this were not so. I RP a fairly major Kislevi, and would like more action as far as he's concerned, but it's just unfortunately that way on the game right now. Powergaming is not the answer, I suspect.

By Victor on Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 06:05 am:

I know this will change no one's mind, as no argument can ever truly do, but allow me to argue my case.
First, to say that no one can damage or fight a gear on foot would be forcing anyone, whose gear is not on hand, to run away. But in truth someone, anyone, could damage a gear on foot. A simple toss of a grenade at the right spot, say the knee joint, would cause a nice amount of damage to the gear and most likely knock it down. Of course anyone crazy enough to do this would run the great risk of being stepped on or shot, Victor is no exception to this and while a formable opponent on foot, would be almost completely killed by such an attack.
Such weapons were already present in the game of Xenogears. Such as the laser weapons used by the Solaris soldiers at the Shevat generator battles. Any mid to high level ethers would do just as well. To say that one could not fight a gear would be wrong, to say that one could not -win- against a gear would be correct, as is shown by the thousands of poor dunemen that get stepped on during the game.
When I viewed the rules of combat, and read that no one could fight gears, I assumed that it was meant to say that no one could do as Graft and Id do. They could fight gears barehanded, which in all other people would cause them to break their hands and then be stepped on by the gear.
If you wish to pull the age-old excuse of powergaming out of the hat, then feel free to do so. But allow me to point out a few example of powergaming that I have saw my-self. How about the ability to move fast enough to dodge bullets? No one, not even the all mighty Id could move faster then the speed of sound. To dodge bullets you would require a reaction speed great then seven hundred-mile per hour, or knowledge of the near future. Both of which I believe would count as powergaming.
Another example would be the creation of characters with greater then great powers and weapons for the purpose of a Tiny Plot, but then using them after the Tiny Plot is over for the personal gain of the character. Maybe the creation of massive NPC battle forces counts as powergaming? Maybe not but it seems unfair to the balance of the game to allow one country to command a vast force and the other has nothing except a -few- player character gears?
I understand that creating a powerful force in Kislev would give too much power to a few people, but no one will ever apply for Kislev if there is nothing there to draw them in. Aveh is packing all the good stuff, and my attempts to improve Kislev are most likely turned away with a single glance.
Most of all, Victor's job to create weapons, a job which he doesn't do because all the weapons I can think of that are truly impressive and worth spending time on, are beyond my reach to get approval for them.
But I realize that this not my game, and I'm not running it, so I withdraw my hat from the ring and submit to your will.

-Victor Darkskies

P.s.
My weather controlling powers are coming along just fine, why do you ask?

By Dominia on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 08:04 am:

Eerrrr... All kindness and respect meant, -had- you asked for something like that, it would have been rejected. ^_^;

5 foot tall person.... vs. Multiple story tall Gear.

Regardless of what you're equipped with, that aint gonna happen. ^_^;;; Were this a TP idea or a plot, it would be considerable, but pulling this weaponry out of nowhere is a little bit unreasonable and inconsiderate.

By Victor on Friday, November 23, 2001 - 04:54 am:

I never said that I could beat Gears, that's against the rules. No one said I couldn't have weapons to knock them down. Plus can you picture how much energy it takes to generate a sonic shockwave, or an electrical pulse powerful enough to affect a gear. Even Victor's suit would be unable to power such weapons for more then a few seconds.

By Me on Thursday, November 22, 2001 - 08:43 am:

Riiiiight. So Victor can beat gears in hand-to-hand.

How....nice...for...Victor. X_x

How's your weather-controlling, Victor?

By Victor on Thursday, November 22, 2001 - 04:48 am:

Victor looked down at the fearful man that stood before him, reattaching the last piece of his glove to the armor underneath it. Stuttering, the man looked up at Victor and said "I-i-it's all ready Commander. When ever you want to test it out." The man retreated from Victor's side and watched to see what he would do next.

Victor looked up at the three gears standing about twenty yards away. Nodding his head slightly, the lead gear turned to him and leaped forward. Just as the gear's blade came down, Victor raised his hand towards the gear.

There was a ear shattering scream, which soon disappeared beyond human hearing. The air rippled like waves on the ocean as the force of the sound pushed the gear's blade to a halt. Raising his other hand, Victor activated the second sonic cannon on his glove, sending the gear flying backwards.

Nodding once more, the two remaining gears charged forward at Victor. Raising both hands, Victor sent one of the two gears crashing into the lead gear. The remaining gear swing it's sword down hard at Victor, who side stepped the attack. Laying his hand on the blade of the gear, Victor sent an electrical pulse up the blade and into the gear. The gear jerked and then slumped over on to the others.

Victor turned to the man beside him and nodded slightly as he said "These will do for now. I will test the rest of the features at a later date." Victor left the man behind as he entered the Darkskies with Faith in tow.

The man watched the Darkskies leave, and turned to the three gears laying on top one another as they tried to sort them-selves out. "T-thank you sir." he said to the disappearing Darkskies.