Aw-right, so Solaris and the Yggdrasil have been at peace. Well, since some people in positions of authority want to end the peace for IC and OOC reasons, I figure we may as well do it in a way that would jumpstart a dying TP.

Namely, the Virus TP. Bwha ha ha ha. ^_^

To put it simply, those at the top of command in Solaris know that the virus was created on accident but released on purpose by someone. Who released it, almost nobody knows. But the Solarian public want an answer, and they want it -fast-. They may be ignorant drones controlled by a government that exercises propaganda whenever convenient, but when people are becoming ill left and right due to an unknown virus, even they may stage an uprising.

So, how to calm the public and cut the peace with the Yggdrasil? Simple! Blame the Virus on the Yggdrasil! The government would immediately move to cut the SolAveh compact, and the Solarian citizens would immediately unite in hatred of the Yggdrasil. The war effort would be stronger than ever as many who are able-bodied would enlist in the military.

Exactly how the Virus would be falsely traced to the Yggdrasil will remain a secret. That's part of the fun. :D

Your thoughts on this? Good/bad/l33t/s|_|xx0rz?

By Ryoji on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 02:18 am:

Bwa ha ha ha! Then the sand-pirates shall join Shevat--Shevat I say! Mwahahha--erm. Or maybe not. But it's a cool idea, good job Ramsus ;)

By Talon on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 02:24 am:

I like it...random destruction and carnage for all! On another note it's just a good idea to get some RP going.

By TheGazel on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 02:38 am:

We think it's a great idea. It opens a ton of doors for other TP's to move forward.

By Gabriel on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 02:44 am:

Aw, man. So after the war in-- okay, NEAR Nisan, now I've got ANOTHER war to attend between Solaris and Aveh...

::happy sigh:: I'm a busy priest, but at least I get to do more priestly things... even if it is cursing the enemy and blessing the ally. Geez, now I've GOTTA learn that healing Ether...

By Sigurd on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 11:55 pm:

*Sigurd grumbles something about how everything is always blamed on the Ygg, before being shushed by the RPer*

It's a fair idea. Some Solarians may question how mere -Lambs- could unleash a virus like that, but others will only be even more psyched about how the -Lambs- are trying to infiltrate and destroy their society.

At the least, it'll break the peace and cause havoc to sweep through the world once more. ^_^

*shuts Sigurd, who is nursing a bottle of aspirin and looking pained, in a closet*

By Domi on Friday, May 17, 2002 - 12:50 am:

Of course, this is all fair and well, spare that we're aiming for neutrality between Solaris and the Ygg these days.

We had 2 years with the Ygg attacking Solaris, Solaris attacking Ygg. It's really rather mindless, and as logic goes, even in the GAME Solaris didn't give a flying fuck about the Ygg.

They just did their own thing, the Ygg harrassed them, and mostly Solaris did it's own thing only reacting when the Ygg got too far in the way.

And even then they got their way.

So, right. I know quite a number of players (myself included) don't want this to go into outright and complete violent war. Neutrality lets everyone do whatever they care to do without having to be good. Or having to be violent.

Of course, to be fair, I loathe almost 99% of this entire idea, and have from the start, but as no one apparently gives a damn about my opinions on this...

Mrf.

By Ryukumu/Ramsus/Saul on Friday, May 17, 2002 - 01:40 am:

The Ygg would be blamed with the Virus initially, but later on it will be trailed back to Solaris. It'd be back to neutrality then, though for a while it would be a free-for-all.

Plus, as we've learned from experiance, TPs that focus solely on battles tend to... well... suck. Really, really badly. I wouldn't dare suggest we do another one like that. ^_^;

By Brin on Friday, May 17, 2002 - 11:19 am:

Another idea is a rumour spread about the solarian citizenry, who hear that the surface is free from disease, so they want to go there, of course. Under heavy guard, naturally. Nothing quite like some snotty solarians running around the surface to stir up anti-solarian sentiment ^^.

By Sigurd on Friday, May 17, 2002 - 08:32 pm:

>We had 2 years with the Ygg attacking Solaris, Solaris attacking Ygg. It's really rather mindless, and as logic goes, even in the GAME Solaris didn't give a flying fuck about the Ygg.>

Oh. Being new, I wouldn't have experienced those 2 years; I haven't known anything but peace between the Yggdrasil and Solaris.

There is very little interaction between the ship and Solaris these days, however.

By Bart on Friday, May 17, 2002 - 08:34 pm:

Of course, if you want this to be realistic at all what do you think the people will want when they find the cause of a virus that COULD wipe out their population? Do you think they'll be satisfied with Solaris sitting on it's fanny and poking the Ygg a couple of times? No! They'll want the Ygg wiped off the map. Seriously.

I really don't like this plot, in all honesty. But whatever the case.

*Sigh* I'm just going to take a break from all this and come back when it doesen't stress me out. Sorry.

By Domi on Friday, May 17, 2002 - 08:49 pm:

I hate to say it, but I'm two beats away from following suit with Bart here. (>_<)

Meh. I would try arguing the point, but I am inspired with the very blatant realization that no one would listen.

Well, when I'm feeling more like being yelled at and insulted by players, I'll go play the Vicious Wizard and attempt to compromise ideas. Until then, take it to the TP Council.

By Sirus on Friday, May 17, 2002 - 09:30 pm:

Yeesh, why does -everything- here go to hell whenever my computer breaks down? Okay, maybe there was a much more vehement argument about this idea on the actual MUCK that I missed out on, and if so then I recant what i'm about to say. Anyways, from what i've seen in this thread, all Ryu did was -suggest- an idea for a plot here, and both Domi and Bart wave their arms around saying they hate it and they've gotta leave for a while if it doesn't go away. Sorry, but from my standpoint, that looks pretty damn childish, if not outright rude to Ryu. If you don't like the plot, thats perfectly understandable, but you've got to say more than 'I hate this plot'. Sure, neutrality, isn't that pretty much what's going on now? Hm, do you hear that sound thats been going on since the SolAveh pact? ...Oh right, it's the sound of NOTHING HAPPENING. Gah, okay, that was needlessly vicious. Now really, I don't like the idea of a full-on violent war, but I think that something does need to happen. Maybe a few skirmishes here and there, but I don't think anyone is saying they want to bring the full wrath of Solaris down on the poor lil Ygg. Besides, it's not like the Yggers are teriffically easy to find, anyways. Anyways, thats my two buck. Peace out.

By TheGazel on Saturday, May 18, 2002 - 12:08 am:

Alright, I never meant for this to erupt into arguments, bickering, and people threatening to leave. After botching it up before it began with Domi and Bart, I was just going to keep quiet and let it slide. Then Ramsus convinced me to let it play out on these boards. Well we can all see where that lead. No plot is worth making people leave, so I'm just going to pull the plug on the whole thing. Forget it ever happened, alright? And terribly sorry about the stress and frustration this caused.

By Bart on Saturday, May 18, 2002 - 02:50 am:

There was, Sirus. There was.

First off, I don't like the plot for differen't reasons than you state in the first place (I personally don't care if the Ygg is seen as the bad guy or not. That's not the issue at all for me).

Finally, i'm not leaving the MUCK alone for a while due to that plot idea alone. That's not what I meant at ALL. It's a whole bunch of things. You could say that plot thing was the straw that broke the camel's back. Things were bothering me and stressing me before that thing came up and it only added to it.

So that's the full explaination. I apologize to everyone I may have offended or hurt and for exploding like that.

By Sirus on Saturday, May 18, 2002 - 03:24 am:

Understood. Likewise, I apologize for the post made above. Today isn't one of my better days (Bogus temps on customer service lines do that to me) and I just followed my gut on an issue I shouldn't have. Anyways, Gazel's rescinded the plot idea, and we can all go back to beer and skittles in the land XenoMUCK. :P

By Sad Ramsus on Saturday, May 18, 2002 - 07:12 pm:

I encouraged Gazel to go on with it because it really sounded like a good idea. I know I haven't pushed it very much myself (been busy), but no one seemed to give a flying fishstick about the Virus TP so I saw this as an excellent way to jumpstart the plot back to life. Excuse me for trying to recover a plot that DID have the potential to be good.

Sure, it'd be back to the 'Solaris vs Ygg' thing on a pretty heavy basis. But Sirus has a point: The SolAveh thing was kinda neat at first, but now I really, really think it sucks. And if the two aren't at peace, then what can they be at? They could be neutral for a while, but sooner or later if there's going to be ANY plot involvement ANYWHERE on the MUCK, one of the two sides is gonna have to be pissed off at each other. For there to be plot, there has to be conflict of some kind.

I'm not encouraging another battle-based TP. I know how much those can, and have, sucked. With a LOT of preplanning and coordination, as well as common sense on behalf of the players, a fight-based TP could work. But it takes a helluva lot of self control, discipline, and common sense. Frankly, more than I have.

I thought this plot could have been pretty cool. One or two full-out assaults against the Ygg at first, then maybe the Ygg would go into hiding (I'm guessing--- it's up to Bart/Sigurd) for a while. Meanwhile, the powers that be in Kislev, Aveh, or Shevat might launch their OWN investigations and find out what REALLY happened. The Ygg's name would be cleared, while Solaris is even deeper in trouble. Gazel-RPer suggested that there could be a 2nd and 3rd class citizen revolt for a civil war--- now THAT could be good.

But since I can't ever seem to come up with an idea that everyone likes, I guess it won't happen. Hrm.

By Dominia on Saturday, May 18, 2002 - 08:52 pm:

Let's get things straight here.

First off, everyone's admitted that they were posting in anger: And I'm going to take this moment to admit that I was furious, too, when I posted. So I apologize, sincerely: I was mad, I -am- mad, and I'm being a bit blunt. Thus, you all have the completely wrong idea about what's going on. So. Why I protested is a completely more elaborate set of events than what you all are so willing and rushing to blame me for.

So let's clarify.

I have had problems with the Virus TP from the start. Yes. I admit this. I let it run in the background because it seemed harmless enough, and because I really didn't know how to say no to it, because I don't really like direct confrontation all too much, and because I felt like, in a lot of ways, the thing was forced on me. When I asked questions about it, I was always told that 'everyone' loved it and that 'everyone' thought it should go, and thus my opinion should be completely beyond consideration because someone else was having fun with it.

I do not have a TP outline for it, and although I remember discussing the idea in some depth, it went through a lot of changes and alterations in the latter stages of creation in which Luka added things to the plot and so on.

So, I basically have no idea what's going on or being planned. Does anyone agree enough with me to realize that, yes, this makes me nervous?

Especially when huge, world-shifting events are being planned into it, and it's being used almost like a shield, as an excuse to do huge and massive things without anyone even OOCly knowing what's going on. Apparently I, as the Head Wiz, have no right to know what you're planning, even. And when it was explained to me that I was going to be kept in the dark, and that my character had been reduced to 'random ignorant brute', hm, yes, I was unhappy.

But even that aside, I feel like I have a right to know what's going on, and the TP council has a right to know what's going on so that they can plan it and tell you what you CAN'T do to other people without their regard.

Yes, in a lot of ways it seems like you just want to throw the game into violent disarray. But you know, that's paranoia talking, not accusation. It's what happens when you keep the entire game ignorant, and decide the fate of -everyone- on this game because two or three people think it's fun.

So, I ask you this: Write up an outline finally. Take it to the Council. That's all I'l really pissed over and all I'm really asking.

Because it seems presumptuous in the extreme to determine the entire set of world politics by yourself OOCly without ever talking to anyone else. Especially when the general line of thought is 'Dominia has no right to know, and if she protests, we'll just say "Everyone likes it but you, so you can't stop it" or "It's too far along to stop despite how it only two people and their alts are even aware of it"'.

So, yes, I think that the problem is that the management of this plot has been a bit forceful, or at least has come off as that.

But goodness knows that you all apparently could care less what I think.

So I'm going back off to my corner now. I really have no will whatsoever to sign on this game right now. It's far too high in stress for me, and I am really too frustrated to handle this.

So, that's that.

By Luka on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 03:03 pm:

Brief two cents:

The SolAveh side was put up a -long- time ago, and even I think it should pass on, which I thought it had... and I've posted about it, I'm fairly sure. So that shouldn't be holding anyone back, since ICly and OOCly things have reached their natural end on that. It did what it had to, and Solaris has solidified more control over Aveh through patience and a temporary treaty that has left a council of Solarians/Aveh (and Brin) in charge instead of Shakhan. (As for no plot being possible without the Ygg and Solaris going at it, Ryu, what about Aquavy? Kislev? Nisan? Shevat?)

I haven't heard anything of the Virus TP either, past initially talking to Ryu about it (back when it was just some flesh-eating virus, wasn't it? x_x)

I agree though--before everyone in the world gets involved, at least a writeup would be useful. Everyone plays the game with their own ideas in mind, and details getting worked out can help a lot more in the end so everyone knows a little of what they personally can RP without being clueless.

And please remember to respect the HeadWiz, folks. I know it's easy to think of her as just another player since she runs alongside you, but she -has- had to keep the responsibility of the entire muck in mind for several years now instead of just logging on occasionally to see what fun can be had. Having done Wizards/Imm/Admin duties myself off and on through the years, I know how frustrating it can be like. Give her at least enough respect to sit down and talk with her about any ideas on the game.

By Ramsus on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 05:33 pm:

Uh... Luka... buddy... pal... I've... er... kinda already POSTED a writeup. It's the newest topic at the bottom of the TP board. ^_^;;;

By Sirus on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 09:54 pm:

How DARE you correct the Empress! *has Ramsus killed*

By Ramsus on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 02:45 am:

You can't do that! I'm higher rank! -I'LL- have myself killed!

*suddenly, a squadron of l33t attack ninjas come down and kill Ramsus*

By Luka on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 01:26 pm:

I read the topics out of order, Ramsus. Cope! ^^

But I was addressing Domi's previous concern, which is still valid for the point it makes. *STARES at the ninjas*

By Bored Ramsus on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 02:26 pm:

"Hello. My name is (add name here). You killed Ramsus. Prepare to die."

No problemo, Luka. ^_^

By Gabriel on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 03:47 pm:

Erm, be that as it may... ^^;;;;

I've been in games before where an arguement like this has split the player base into neatly divided parties and political alliances, usually with the traditional divides of liberal, conservative, and moderate. Most of the times I fall just left of center, but this time I'm not so sure.

However, before we even get that far, I hope that the need for a divided system with majority votes and possible cous d'tats never arises. All of us has different opinions as to where the game should go, yes, and all of the "old school" players are tired of war. They had two solid years of war. "New school" players, which includes myself, have had nothing but an uneasy peace where the usual GOOD guys turn out to be BAD guys. This is confusing to say the least.

As I have said to others privately, a war would make things nice and neat inasmuch as it would re-align the game to "where it is supposed to be" (in respect to the game), but if that means possibly huring the feelings of our most cherished players, as well as staring an OOC war, then I am opposed to it.

We're a creative bunch, right? If we can't move the game with a war, then we'll find other ways. If necessary, I'll support new TP initiatives myself to guide us away from it.

By Luka on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 07:16 pm:

Good points, all, Gabriel. ^^

I'm all for anything that isn't just a flat out war... perhaps I'm too stodgy, but something that would reactivate matters -would- be nice, while not forcing people who come home with the intent of just unwinding to be confronted with constantly having to scene being attacked or yelled at due to their ethnicity. Is there anything to be done with the Rogue Ethos? Perhaps the Virus is their opinion of 'God's Plague' to start off the Judgement? Conflict is nice, but having it fall shy of the types of things that were going on before would be really a relief (Kelvena, Domi and I all getting told oocly that it was fine to get assaulted and ground into losing because we were 'Solarian and thereby -evil- and we -deserved- it.' strikes me in recollection as one.)

Before going too far, where do people see the storyline of Xenomuck progressing? Does everyone honestly want to propel things into all-is-Wel (*ducks*)? Would you be comfortable with the natural chain of progressions through the IC events that have happened over the years? Overall, what sort of direction would people really feel comfortable with before we start thinking about the actions to bring us to that point?

Just thoughts going by. ^^;

By Luka on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 07:36 pm:

Actually, let me add a note:

On that topic, if you notice some people--myself and Domi included, and especially Kel--adverse to war, this would be why. We had the situation a number of times of being essentially ordered to come into a scene just for the sole purpose of being a 'bad guy' for the self-appointed hero to point at and pose dramatically around before quashing us into the ground. When we protested, we were told to various degrees that we deserved it--not that it was logical to fight, but that it was justified oocly in humiliating us oocly/icly, hurting us, and using us in such a manner--because we were Solarian and they were not. That was all.

This was a great deal of why the 'Solarians are not Evil' essay was posted up. It was what I know prompted Kel to become perma-idle, and partially what encouraged myself to take a break.

No one likes to log on to being the stand-up villain that everyone uses as a footstool to glory, especially in such a morally blurred game as Xenogears. No one really likes being berated into scenes where they stand there and get insulted for hours for simply being loyal to their country. Yes, it's IC and even fun in certain amounts, but when it becomes an experience of logging on only to bear someone taunting you oocly until you show up icly so they can glory-hound off you, it just makes things hard.

I hope that helps to at least clarify a little of what might possibly be a mystery as to why wars have such a negative stigma. ^^; It's not that people are completely flat-out unreasonable, it's just that some of us have really bad memories and experiences.

By Sirus on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 08:14 pm:

You know, it's worth noting that just about all the people who're responsible for those incidents are now gone from Xeno, unless there are some no one told me about. Regardless, Xeno's been a long while without any serious player disputes at the level of Scythe, James, Old Cain or Kiara for almost a year, i'd say (Something which regrettably makes me little more than a ranting drunkard with a wizard flag :P). Chalk this up to whatever you like, be it overall nicer players or the fact that Xeno doesn't get enough RP anymore for people to show their true colors, but theres generally a lack of any PR issues, for the most part. Ah, naturally not counting what this thread had become last week, of course. Anyways, while I also do not favor an all-out war, i'd have to say that most people have better a understanding of what Solaris is like now, and it'd be unlikely (hopefully) to have such encounters again should we have something that resembles a war. And if there are....well...i'll bash to offenders senseless with a giant club. At least then i'd be able to actually do something. ^^

By TheGazel on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 11:57 pm:

When I first thought up my quasi-TP to shift blame to the Yggdrasil, the intent was never all out war. And over the past week or so, I've come to see that it will never be seen as more than that until I give away the whole plot. Unfortunately this is something I cannot do. I told Cain some of it, well actually almost all of it, because at the time I felt it would never go through. He, as well as Ramsus, both know -why- Solaris would suddenly stop fighting the Yggdrasil, and perhaps that is why they both seemed to react much more positively towards the entire TP from the beginning. I really wish now that I had told Domi the entire story (I thought that I did, but perhaps I didn't. My memory isn't all that great). But as it stands, no one will go along with something that seems like a prelude to nothing but gear battles. The battle I had intended for it to lead to was much, -much- more strategic and perhaps even subversive. It was to move on many fronts with the -offer- of RPing extended to many parties, such as the Rogue Etones, Shevat, even the Yggdrasil itself after the initial "raid". It was meant to be nothing more than an interesting flashpoint and meant to do nothing more than open the logjam of the current situation. I am very truly sorry that it was this TP that caused many pent up tensions to break, but as I said before, I believe we should simply drop it and create something better. If a TP must be told in full to all involved parties leaving no surprises there is, quite frankly, no reason what so ever to even -do- the TP. Some things simply require faith, and I have neither the experience, nor the people's trust required to ask for that kind of faith.

And sorry for the really long note.

By Dominia on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 01:07 am:

Quick Domi Note!

It's true that the old players had their full of war, and the new ones have had their fill of peace.

But I can't see why people seem to believe that only two forms of RPing potential exist: Peace and War. Is there no RP if there is no blatant violence? Does it have to be dramatic enough to be considered a 'war' to be fun?

It seems uncreative to me, and often irritating, that a lot of players reach a dead end and say, "Well, that's that, now we've got to kill someone." They want their 'good' guys and their 'bad' guys, and they want their lines between them. Shevat can not be looking out for Shevat (neglective of how they did some terrible things in the past to Nisan during the Sophia era, thus furthering Xenogears's innate moral ambiguity), they have to be 'good', and it's 'not canon' if they are doing something for their own benefit because they feel threatened.

Yes, a lot of us have had our fill of being 'evil', of being told that 'if we were good people, we'd be on the other side'. I know the people who did this are gone.

And while I believe as much as anyone that the peace has run it's course, I don't think that it's necessary to leap from one extreme to the other.

You know, in the game of Xenogears itself, you're not really fighting a war. Solaris for the most part ignores you, and only fights you when you get in it's way. You were the tiny little underdogs, and Solaris was the big Holy Empire that didn't particularly care that you existed, outside of the Contact.

So, maybe it's just picking at straws and complaining about a specific wording, but does it need to be worded as 'we need to go to war to have RP'? That makes it sound like you want blatant, outright, black and white conflict, lots of fighting, strict hatred, battles and so-on-so-forth.

My suggestion has always been, and remains, that we instead try to play this more realistically and less black and white. Instead of wanting to polarize this good and evil and talking about starting wars, can't we have the peace treaty disolve into a sort of informal neutrality? We don't -need- the Ygg to start getting guns aimed at it again. I don't think anything can come from that anyway.

But if we do have a 'Everyone does what they want to', then it's inevitable that Solaris will step on people's toes. Shevat can listen to the Ygg, people can rethink their motives, and the world can pretty much polticically start anew, with no strings attached.

And it wont be 'war'. It'll be people following their own country's intentions. And since these intentions differ, conflict will happen.

But it wont be 'Me good, you bad, let's be at war!'

I mean, heck, we've already got the Aveh-Kislev war. We don't need every single other area completely incapable of talking to any other area due without violence.

So maybe we should stop planning battles and war and instead think about just clearing the drawing board and letting it go as it will? That seems more realistic, more condusive to RP and more fun all in all to me.

Am I making any sense at all here?

By Luka on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 02:20 am:

No, no no! I wasn't trying to blame, I was just noting why there's the 'once burned twice shy' reaction lingering here and there. Many sorries. ^^ I know it sounded really horrible, but I also wanted to outline the general story for if anyone's wondering why there was also a push for peace before this. Sorry about that, I just thought it might help to make more sense to people now in the present if the dimensions of the past were known.
The stage -is- set to clear the board, as it were--can anyone think of a good plot to clear something like that out if that's to be done?

By Gabriel on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 04:13 am:

Well, the upcoming conflict that may or may not happen reguarding how Shevat is handling Fort Jasper (this does not need to start a war, or even a named battle [although the "Battle of Nisan" has a ring to it ^^;], but there will probably be some measure of conflict) may provide an interesting medium. I'm not the only one who knows the full scope of events IC; Margie does as well, and one or two others in a semi-power position do.

Perhaps the whole thing could come to a fever-pitch, and instead of fighting someone steps up and says "Enough!".

My proposal is this: we use this opportunity to settle Fort Jasper in one of two ways:
A) It is governed by the only truly neutral force on the planet, Nisan
B) It is governed by an actual multinational council, consisting of reps from both of the Sky Nations, as well as the nations of Ignas.

Either way, one of the most powerful weapons on the planet is effectively neutralized. This would force everyone back onto equal footing militarily, as well as inspire some nationalism WITHOUT bloodshed.

This is just a rough idea, of course. Submitted for your approval? ^^;

By Ramsus on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 04:48 am:

Okay. This is my 4th draft for a reply to this thread. The first three were very, VERY bitter. I will sum up what needs to be said in 3 points:

1) An updated writeup has been written and posted.
2) I feel all the feedback I have been given are flames, with no meaningful or useful comments or criticisms
3) No one has actually replied to the writeup that was posted four days ago.

Read the darn thing and reply to the WRITEUP. Everything I have previously said in this thread is null and void. Read the writeup. Reply to the writeup. We'll go from there.

Thank you.

By Luka on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 01:45 pm:

Ramsus, no one's ignoring that, but I think people are just playing with options -in general- right now. Please don't get upset if people aren't responding to that right away or want to brainstorm other ideas that might not involve the Virus--it probably just needs a little to settle in to be thought over. Okay?